S2, Ep 6: Let’s Talk Leadership Transitions with Annie McKay

Race in the Workplace Podcast
Season 2, Episode 6

SEASON 2 EPISODE 6

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:00] JSS: Hey, everybody. This is Joanna Shoffner Scott. You are listening to the Race in the Workplace podcast, a show for DEI organizational leaders that explores race, racism, and racial equity in the workplace. I am a racial equity consultant and the founder of the Stamey Street Consulting Group, a consulting firm that specializes in partnering with organizations to help them meet their racial equity aspirations. My goal for you is to move your organization from being colorblind to equity-centered through sustainable, step-by-step changes.

[EPISODE]

[0:00:38] JSS: Hi, it's Joanna Shoffner Scott here. I am so excited to be with you today. Thank you for allowing me to join you in your day, no matter when you're listening. This season of the podcast is about leadership. I've invited guests to join me to talk about their leadership experiences, either in leading change or moving leaders through change. I am so looking forward to the conversation today. My friend and colleague, Annie McKay, is coming back on the podcast.

Annie was my guest for episode 10, where we discussed teams and racial equity readiness. That episode was the most downloaded episode of my first season. After that episode, I knew that I wanted to have Annie back to talk about leadership transitions. A little about Annie, their work focuses on supporting organizations and networks seeking to center racial justice. It was during Annie's time working in organizations and leadership roles that they became familiar with the importance of all the steps that are needed to be ready for organizational change and then attending to the needs of team members when moving through change. That is a little bit about Annie and their work.

This episode of the podcast, we are talking about leadership transitions. We're talking about it from the perspective of what an organization needs and should be thinking of when there is a leader who is departing the organization and when they are just beginning to search for a new leader to enter the organization. That is the context that we're talking about. I hope that you enjoy our conversation.

Hi, Annie. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited that you came back and I'm looking forward to the conversation that we're going to have today.

[0:02:34] AM: Any day with you, Joanna, on the podcast is a good day, so I'm really happy to be here.

[0:02:38] JSS: Oh, you're so kind. Can you introduce yourself and share a little bit about yourself and about the work that you do?

[0:02:47] AM: Name, Annie McKay, pronouns, they, them. I'm a white, gay, trans, non-binary human. I'm a social worker who grew up in the rural Midwest. I am now mid-Atlantic-based. About the work I do, well, for starters, I get to work with brilliant people like Dr. Joanna Shoffner Scott and the rest of the Stamey Street crew to support teams along their race equity journeys. I'm particularly focused on the conditions needed for transformation, or as we often talk about, Joanna, the air quotes, “feelings” of the work, and finding the past through the feelings and not just around them because the dream we're after is both head and heart work like we always talk about.

[0:03:25] JSS: I'm so glad you shared that. For folks who may not know, Annie was my guest on episode 10 of the podcast. I'll link to it in the show notes. On that episode, we talked about team dynamics. That was the most downloaded episode of season one was our conversation. After that, I knew I wanted to have Annie back to talk about Leadership Transition. You're right, it is head and heart work. I'm warming up to the heart, warming up to the heart, because it's the head for me, but I'm warming up to the heart.

I'm excited about this conversation. For folks who haven't listened to that episode 10, I'll link to it in the show notes as I've said, but in that episode, Annie talks more about their journey and I will link to it there so you can go back and listen to that. We're just going to dive in, because that's what we do here.

[0:04:19] AM: Absolutely.

[0:04:20] JSS: I want to talk about leadership transitions. We seem to be in a season of executive transitions where people who have led organizations for a long time, long times are leaving, even folks who I would call mid-range like, leading from five to 10 years or also leaving. We'd love to know what trends and patterns are you seeing as people are transitioning out of organizations?

[0:04:46] AM: Yeah. You know, Joanna, I think this is such an important topic to explore because it's the mashup of a number of conditions that we've talked about, right? I'm seeing that the pandemic stripped the tread off the tires of a lot of leaders, and the capacity and fortitude and courage to pursue radical transformation took hits too. At the same time of that exhaustion and fatigue, I was also encountering teams who were demanding more, insisting that organizations' proclamations around race equity were operationalized, right? Insisting on better ways of working, insisting on rectifying harmful organizational practices and ways of being.

I don't mean to suggest that all of this just suddenly sprouted in the last three years, but it certainly has accelerated, and with those conditions, you have organizations bringing new leaders into environments with a lot of pent-up demands and frustrations and needs. It is a crash-up of sorts that needs to be attended to in a much different way.

[0:05:43] JSS: Yeah. I think that's true. I also think that when there's a new leader that comes into an organization, sometimes the expectations are so high for that person. That person could be thinking, “I just got my dream job.” Now there’s, like, all of these expectations that are really disappointments from the last leader that are laid at the feet of the new leader. I'm just wondering what you think about that.

[0:06:11] AM: Yeah. I mean, I think that that's some of the stuff that's servicing, right? When I say this pent-up demand is – and also, there may not be knowledge of the pent-up demand because – and we'll get into this, but the folks who are typically responsible for managing or overseeing the process and the transition are so far removed from the day-to-day and the people who make the magic happen, right?

[0:06:31] JSS: Yes.

[0:06:32] AM: They don't have an awareness of the conditions inside as we often talk about inside the container, right? Inside the team. What some of those things are that we need to tell incoming leaders about, right, in full transparency and honesty and think about that as a bi-directional process, right, that we're interviewing. I use the global “we”, but that you're interviewing people to step into an organization and you're also able to convey to them the real conditions that exist because otherwise, it's a significant and serious setup as we have seen time and time again.

[0:07:02] JSS: Yes. I know we'll get into this about search firms too, but it's so important to think through those different steps of the search. Okay. I don't want to get ahead of myself because I'm excited for this part of the conversation, but in your opinion, how is the leadership context racial? Like, how has that become a racialized process?

[0:07:20] AM: Yeah. I mean, I think this part is just like the central piece of the conversation. As I watched historically, white-led organizations undertake race equity journeys in a lot of the networks that you and I have traveled in, and white leaders moving on, stepping aside, stepping down, retiring, or being encouraged to pursue other interests. In many of those instances, they were replaced by leaders of color. Now these leaders of color and in the majority of my experiences, Black women and Black people assigned female at birth they're looked to and expected to immediately tackle and rectify those pent-up demands, frustrations, and needs as I mentioned before, right?

In addition to those conditions, there's these outsized expectations. There's less grace afforded to leaders of color, boards, partners, and funders may have had little knowledge as we were talking about of the challenges that existed under the previous leader. Then when they surface with the new leader — and they will, right, they will, this stuff will come up — it's often assigned to that new leader and that new leader of color, creating gross inaccuracies in the narrative around leadership transition and leaders of color.

Yeah. I was just going to say one other thing. I could see like you're chomping at a bit – but Joanna and I, we love this conversation. I know that we're both a big fan of Building Movement Project and their work. And I would lift up, as you know, we were just talking about this, the research Race to Lead, and it lays bare the realities of the obstacles and the opportunities in addressing the racial leadership gap in nonprofits.

[0:08:55] JSS: I will drop any links that we mentioned into the show notes. I also use the Race to Lead work and appreciate the building movement project. I just want to pause for us to unpack what you just said because I don't think that boards who are doing the hiring or even the leader who's leaving, right, and they're transitioning out, I think everyone thinks this is an opportunity, this is a moment, to bring in a person of color. Like, this is our moment. Often there's organizations I don't have the infrastructure to support that leader and don't know it until the leader comes.

[0:09:33] AM: Yeah.

[0:09:33] JSS: I see that too in my practice. When we think about – and certainly in our shared work – then when we think about what do leaders need, I know we're going to talk about that like, what do leaders need and why aren't there the same levels of grace allowed, right? Now here's this leader, so let's say we're talking about a white-identified leader who's transitioning out and maybe they've been there for like 28 years. Now there's a new Black woman or other woman of color or other person of color. Now they have to fix everything in those 28 years in three and a half weeks. I mean, how have you seen that play out in your work?

[0:10:17] AM: Well, I mean, I think you saying it's the identification of “the moment” and to your point, boards or communities see those transitions as “the moment.” Joanna, we both know “the moment” should have started two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, right? The readying – and I know we're going to talk about this – but setting up the conditions for the next person to not have to tackle all of the things that weren't previously tackled in 28 years. Performance issues, and staff dynamics, and inequitable hiring practices, right, and no employee hand, I mean, even the list goes on.

The moment, and I think that that's where as we get into this, the step that a board or a search firm should take or a board with a search firm should take is recognizing that if your moment is just starting right now like when the transition is announced, you got some catch-up work to do because you need to create the conditions that are optimal for the success of that new leader. That means getting real clear on what wasn't addressed, and what will need to be, and what the support and help is to do that.

[0:11:24] JSS: I love that. That's the truest thing ever. I love what you said about if your moment is just starting now, so whenever the exiting leader, the outgoing leader has made their intentions known, if that's the start of your moment, it's too late.

[0:11:41] AM: Yeah.

[0:11:42] JSS: Not that you can't still do great work. I shouldn't say too late. You have catch-up work to do as to underscore your point, because there is a lot of work to do within that organization to get it ready, because I was just sure from my own experience, as a Black woman who has managed teams, that's I believe that not everybody can take direction for a Black woman. I believe that deeply. Then that sets up that person for a challenging onboarding into that organization when we ignore those racialized dynamics.

I mean, there are gender dynamics, too, just like some men can take direction from people who aren't also men. That's true too. Not every person, you all, but I'm just saying. I think like ignoring that those identity factors, they matter, and they matter in the context of the organization, and that there's work people can do to get ready for that.

[0:12:42] AM: Yeah. We should certainly stick a pen and explore further what you were saying about people not being able to take direction or work for Black women because we're going to talk about readying staff, but just that altruistic notion that people approach these leadership transitions with. I think in that, so white-led boards or predominantly white boards want to sit with the – “We don't see color, so we don't need to consider those.” The implications of different leadership and people not responding or taking direction from Black women. I think that that's some of that vibe that's existing in that, right? You absolutely have to explore all of those pieces.

The other thing I'll say, Joanna, is that when we said the moment should have started before and you got catch-up work to do, we know that transitions happen in a variety of ways. Sometimes there's a longer notice like maybe a year. Sometimes they're abrupt and real short. Neither one is a reason not to do the things that we're talking about. Something could be abrupt and short, and you can still center equity. You can still take into account these considerations. You can still create the conditions for thriving and success. I just really want to say that.

[0:13:50] JSS: I'm glad you did. Even more so, it's important because if there's been an abrupt departure, an even bigger opportunity to be sure that whoever the next leader is, is that they're set up for success, even more so. You teased up, and I want to bring us on into it. What do you think the role is of the board? Like, what do you think the board's role is in planning for a transition and in supporting a new leader?

[0:14:21] AM: How much time?

[0:14:22] JSS: I know, right?

[0:14:25] AM: I mean, we know the boards play a critical role, and the nature of their position is they're typically removed, rightfully so. I had a board previously. They were typically removed from the day-to-day, from the culture, from team dynamics, from all those things that we were describing. If a board is removed from the day-to-day, a search firm is going to be even farther removed from those elements. It's really important that there is a connection to and an understanding of the team dynamics, strengths, and opportunities.

Boards also have the opportunity to center race equity in the process, top to bottom, full stop. That is their responsibility. It is not to abdicate that. If you do hire a firm and expect them to center race equity, that's your role board. Also, as I mentioned like just to ensure that any firm that's being used is also centering equity and holding them accountable to that throughout the process.

Then I think the other thing that we've talked about is, I think boards and search firms feel like the finish line is getting the new leader in the seat. We know that that's not the finish line. The finish line is ensuring that there are supports after the person is in the chair. That's key to that strong start and not running a new leader out the door. What I mean supports through the finish line I'm not talking about a month or two months, I'm talking about an eye on support for a full 12 months for the new leader and the team. It's really important to see that through.

[0:15:46] JSS: Yes. You all can't see us, but I'm nodding. Yes, because there's so much there that I want to explore further. Absolutely, when – and this is something I would share with any organization and any leader who is thinking about transitioning out and certainly any board of directors or board chair who will be leading a search, that is to center equity, as Annie said. You do that from the very beginning. Before you even hire a firm, before you even write a job description, you have to decide that you're going to do this process; this process is going to operate from a place of equity. What that does is that changes many of the subsequent conversations and the “how” in terms of the search.

I think sometimes leaders, board chairs for sure, don't always know that they can do that. They don't know how much control of the process they really have. Sometimes they don't always know the right questions to ask when vetting a firm, when working with the firm, and when you get a pool of candidates created by the firm.

[0:17:02] AM: I think we often talk about debrief process. I also think like throughout this, there's an opportunity for the board not just to ram the train through but to pause at every stop and do a check. We've talked about this from centering equity; we've used a hypothetical before in a different situation where if you start with a large pool that includes Black women, and in the second round, every Black woman is no longer in the pool that moves forward, a clue, Sherlock to stop and debrief what's happening, because something's gone on in your process. We just also bringing in the board's responsibility to debrief throughout the way. Again, not just turn it over to a firm, but to stay actively involved in that.

[0:17:50] JSS: Yes. The other piece of that that I wanted to pick up from what you shared was the support for the team and the support for the new leader well into the search. I agree. I think you're right. I think people think that once the person is hired and onboarded, it's done like, here's the organization, best wishes, then it's in your fruit basket. Have a great run, right?

[0:18:16] AM: That's right.

[0:18:16] JSS: Really, there's so many issues. I think an organization doesn't truly become the new person’s. I think it's at least 24 months.

[0:18:26] AM: Yup.

[0:18:26] JSS: At least two years, at least, because you're still very much in that first year. You're dealing with the structure of the other person bill – or didn't, you're dealing with the problems they created – I mean, you're dealing with the things they couldn't resolve like, it's not your organization, new leader. I think that coaching, having that support for a full calendar year to help the new leaders sort through all of those things that they may have been gifted, inherited if you will. Then that support for the team. Talk a little bit more about the support for the team like, how do you think that having that support for a year for the team? What do you think that can produce?

[0:19:10] AM: I think it can support right sizing and managing expectations on the team. Earlier, I was talking about this pent-up demand frustration harm. We've seen in instances where a team very much wanted the new Black female leader and even team members of color, right, then to your earlier point about people taking direction from Black women, but all of that pent-up frustration is now landing on the desk of the new leader. Staff may have been asking for it for years before, and now they're demanding it, because they see someone like them who can deliver on the things and who is invested in delivering on it.

I think helping staff to understand that those things aren't all going to happen simultaneously, right, and affording new leaders the grace and the space to bring these pieces together, particularly when you have a new leader who was interviewed and was not aware of any of these conditions, right? Probably from their own lived experience, has some hunches, but may not be fully aware of the turmoil that exists within, or as you were saying the gifts that are being given in like, if those are gifts, I don't want them. I think though much of the focus throughout the whole process, even earlier on, often leaves staff completely out. In this, we have to also think about how we center them in the supports.

[0:20:33] JSS: I love that. I think that the piece I definitely want to underscore is the managing expectations, because I've seen that too. I mean, I've seen the new person comes in. It's a person of color. Everybody's excited. Then the expectations, I just mount and mount and mount. This person is like, still trying to figure out where the bathroom is, right? Meanwhile, there's all these expectations and they themselves, the new person as a leader, hasn't even figured out what their own vision for the organization is. They're just trying to sort it out. I do think that that's a real gift to be able to help staff work through it. Also, manage their expectations, but also still hear them.

[0:21:21] AM: That's right.

[0:21:21] JSS: The feelings are big party work. Still hear them in terms of, yes, we know, we hear you, but this person literally just got here. Let's help them, but also, we know that your needs are important too. I know that's a tightrope. That's tough to walk. That's a tough space.

[0:21:37] AM: Yeah. I think for anybody listening to this, whose organization has already undergone the transition, it's like, it’s not too late. Yeah, because we know a lot of really powerful leaders who were onboarded during the earlier parts of the pandemic, right, when everything was still virtual. In the way that that also then adds a nuance onto the transition pieces and the challenges, some of these new leaders that we know and have worked with, they didn't get to see their teams in person for 12, 18, 24 months, right, after becoming hired. That also has an impact. If you were a board member who has supported a transition recently, now's the time to check in with that new leader and say, “I may have learned a few things. How are you doing?”

[0:22:28] JSS: That is wonderful. That's a gift. It really is, because sometimes that can be a lonely space. It can be a very lonely space. I love that idea of that check-in like, “How's it going?” Because I think that is a moment too for that new leader to say there was a whole bunch of stuff going on or here's where I need your support, which is the most productive piece of that.

[0:22:54] AM: Right, because we know that historically white-led organizations that those white-identified leaders could fail up and do no wrong. We know that when new leaders of color are new to organizations, I don't mean they're new to leadership, but when new leaders of color, and specifically Black women and Black people assigned female birth come in, they don't have the grace. There isn’t a fail that – and they also don't only don't have the grace, but there isn't the space to be able to say, “Hang on a second, I could use some support.”

[0:23:22] JSS: Yes.

[0:23:23] AM: Expectations that we place on the shoulders of those new leaders, much different.

[0:23:28] JSS: In this work, I have to say this. In this work that we do where we're centering racial equity, the credit is not the same. The expectation is not the same. There's an expectation that you're a Black leader coming to organization, you know this. When they're white counterparts, even if they did take up the work, the credit for it is very different. The way it's approached is very different. That’s, I think something to keep in mind too, when leadership is shifting too is the give to your point earlier, give space and grace, because that person is probably coming into that organization with the understanding like, here I am. I'm a Black woman, I'm leading this organization. If I get this wrong, they will never have another Black leader ever in the history of this organization. That is an incredible weight to carry.

[0:24:21] AM: We talked earlier, and I mentioned just briefly the creation of gross inaccuracies and narratives around leadership, transition, and leaders of color like, all of that gets fed into with these early conditions that we're talking about.

[0:24:32] JSS: Let's pivot to one of my favorite parts, which is the doing. Is there a way that we can prepare an organization for leadership transition? Then what does that look like? What does the honorarium to that look like?

[0:24:44] AM: Yeah. I mean, this is what you and I have been discussing and responding to, right, and some of our work together in the last two years. Again, we have come after transitions. We've been through the middle of transitions. We have a lot of different experiences at Stamey Street with this body of work. It came into such clear focus, right, with the concentration of the turnover in the last few years, and how we're structuring, right, like how we're thinking about our supportive services. It's approaching it in three phases, right? It's the staff input and inclusion. Those are two different things.

Input, inclusion two different things, right? Because oftentimes, we will turn to staff and say, “What is it that you want?” We'll take that and say, “It's like we do with community, honestly, in policy advocacy.” We said, “Cool, we got it. We'll see you on the other side.” Then this inclusion looks like both gathering input and then keeping staff looped in throughout the process. I think assessing the conditions, right? All of that is part of phase one.

Again, I want to emphasize that whether it's a short timeline that you have or an abrupt timeline, or a longer one, all of these things are still possible to do. Then I think it's also determining like what clear and consistent steps look like for the process. That's phase two, right? Like, how are we going to center equity, and what it's going to look like through that process? Then the third phase, right, as we talk about that faux finish line, but it's through the finish line and looking at it beyond. Three phases overall, but the on-ramp, right, really being exploring water staff input and inclusion look like, what are the conditions within the container, and how are we going to center equity from the start? That's all key in phase one.

[0:26:24] JSS: Oh, I love that. This is something that Annie and I have been talking about a lot. We are offering an executive leadership transition support-like coaching service. If you are listening and you are a board chair, or you are an executive director, and you know you're going to be transitioning out in the next six months or so, you can go to my website, stameystreet.com, and book a 30-minute appointment to talk with us about your transition. We want to see you all win.

Part of that is see you all be successful and see your transition out be successful, the new leader transition in be successful. The part that I love about this is that with intention, that can happen. As long as we build in that intentionality and all the phases that Annie described, and we approach this both the exit and the entry with intentionality, that can really change the leadership experience of the new person, whoever's coming into the organization. That will lead to better sustainability.

[0:27:36] AM: Yeah. I mean, I'm just sitting here, sitting in that, and again, you can't see, but I was pausing because Joanna, the world that you and I are after, right, and are inspiring to, we can't leave any talent on the sidelines. We can't; we also can't be consumed with unnecessary stuff. I think about this, and you're chewing up the energy, the talent, the brilliance of new leaders and new leaders of color, attending to all these other things that could have been attended to previously. We need all of that brilliance and that energy and that shine pushing forward and not trying to rectify what was behind them and what they weren't responsible for.

[0:28:17] JSS: Yes. Yes. I just got a visual about the talent being chewed up. I love how you always say how the tires, the trick gets ripped off the tires as leaders come into organizations and are dealing with things that are important, but may not be like that first reflection of their own vision, right? What a precious gift to give someone the time to be able to think about what their vision is for that new, for that place, that place that they're in, new to them, but not new to everyone else. I think people deserve that.

[0:28:54] AM: Yeah.

[0:28:54] JSS: I think people deserve that. We have to talk about the feels. How can organizations manage the feelings? Like how can they get prepared? I'll just share, I remember earlier in my career, my boss at the time, who was a mentor and is still a good friend, shared that he was leaving, and I was in a, I was just in shambles because I adored this person and learned so much from him. How can we help prepare people for the feelings around the transition?

[0:29:30] AM: Yeah. I mean, transparency and involvement are key, right? I'm going to say that again, real slow. Transparency and involvement. I know that you and I are huge fans of Vu Le’s Nonprofit AF blog post. He has an exceptional piece on this very topic. He so poignantly offers if you want staff not to hate board members guts, don't just superficially involve staff, but talk about authentic collaboration and sharing of power, right? That right there is a game changer. That is not how one transitions have been managed, but also just buy that. It's going to take into account the feelings that are swirling inside that container and keep a focus on them, right? Keep them in view as you're moving through this process.

Clearly communicating what staff can expect, and when following through with that, I've seen organizations gather; this is why I said input and inclusion are two different things. I've seen organizations gather input from staff only to return six months later announcing a new leader, never has – staff updated in between that creates a tremendous amount of anxiety. That is so unnecessary because change already creates anxiety. What can we do to minimize that?

I think. Also, I've talked about this, but tapping the very people who make the magic happen every day will ensure that you have the best understanding not only of what's needed but being able to authentically communicate to new leaders what they're walking into. I have, I mean, 201, right? Folks who are even internally promoted or internal candidates have every one of them have experienced some surprise that they weren't made aware of. Sometimes it's budgetary considerations like, “Oh, by the way. Half of your funding is going away.” Other times it's, “Your staff are about to unionize.” To be clear, both of us are supporters of unionizing; that's not the issue here that we're talking about, right? That's really important.

We've talked about the feelings don't stop when someone's hired. You may be thinking that, oh, staff are going to be relieved once a new leader is in place. Nope. Like we said earlier, you got to run through the finish line and with feelings; that means attending to them for a solid year with both staff and that new leader, right? It's blending those pieces together. I'll talk a little bit more in the last piece, but ignore feelings around transition at your own peril.

[0:31:57] JSS: Well, that's heavy. That's heavy. I think that's right, though. The thing as you as you were talking, the thing that I said, it's heavy, but it's also true. As you were talking, I was thinking that the beauty of having some support during this process also means that there's support in helping people manage the feelings that doesn't rest with the newly transitioned in leader.

[0:32:25] AM: That's right.

[0:32:26] JSS: Right? That they themselves will have feelings about all this. It's important to hold multiple things at the same time when there's been that transition, especially if it's a long-standing leader or what I call a midterm like that for 10 years, person who's transitioning out.

[0:32:43] AM: Yeah, Joanne. I think this is the other thing that we've talked about and how Stamey Street can be positioned and how you should have a support positioned is that you think about the bridge between the previous leader and the new leader, right? The old container and the new container. Stamey Street serving as a bridge to understand the conditions that were present before, because you don't always have an overlap of leaders. Even if you do, that doesn't necessarily mean that an understanding is conveyed about what a new leader is walking into.

Having someone in terms of that support through the finish line, making sure that whatever support is there for that new leader in the team also was involved earlier on and understood the conditions that existed before, right? That's going to be really important to helping to support and manage feelings throughout, because staff who you suddenly show up with a new leader, there's not trust built there. The staff may not understand the role in that case of Stamey Street to support them, so just something else for boards to be thinking about is the consistency of the support before the new leader and after the new leader.

[0:33:46] JSS: Yeah. I think that's such an important piece of the puzzle and such an important element that can lead to a successful, not just hire, but a person who stays, which we ultimately, I think that's what success is, is that the part it's a good fit in the person stays. I want to ask as our time is wrapping up, what are some of the growth opportunities that you see in organizations who are in this place of transition? Because we've talked about things that are to be aware of. I think this is a growth edge. What are the – user words? What do you see as some of the growth opportunities?

[0:34:28] AM: Yeah. I think picking up from some things that we sprinkled out through our conversation as the good and great, Maya Angelou, still good and great. My Angelou instructs us, chance to know better, do better. If you're using a search firm, don't abdicate the responsibility of centering race equity. Well, I'm speaking of board here. The board, that is your role. I don't, I was about to say, I don't care and that's a little too strong. Look, kick the tires on whatever a search firm's race equity practice is and inquire about it, interrogate it, because we know that people can slap words up and not actually operationalize those things.

Broaden your thinking; we are so stuck in white-determined standards and qualifications, so for example, instead of insisting that candidates in a pool have formal degrees for roles that aren't specialized. Clue, let you in on a little secret, ED roles aren't specialized in this case, right? They're not doctors or lawyers or accountants, just to name a few. And consider others, right, in different standards of qualifications like, “Oh, I don't know. Lived experience or direct experience by being affected by systemic injustice and racism.” Right?

I mean, we're joking, but seriously, Joanna, I mean, that you walk in to lead an organization if you – a child advocacy organization, and if you were a Black child who grew up in the child welfare system, and then was system involved in some of their ways, you got real knowledge of the things that need to be addressed. It doesn't take a degree to do that, right? Then I think the last thing I'd say is acknowledging and unpacking your biases about leadership. If you don't, it's going to be a barrier to bringing in powerful transformative leaders.

[0:36:09] JSS: Yes. I love all of those nuggets, because it's so true in terms of how we think about and how we measure people's leadership. Like people, in the example that you gave for a child advocacy organization, someone who comes from community who can organize people. That is its own skill set. It took me a long time to realize that. It wasn't until I met real organizers. I was like, “Oh, this is a real thing, like just because that's not my thing.” As our time is wrapping up, we could talk for another hour, but I know we can't. If you had space to give your clients one piece of advice about a leadership transition that's upcoming, what would it be? Even that you yourself have gone through this.

[0:36:54] AM: I have.

[0:36:54] JSS: What would it be?

[0:36:56] AM: I'm going to come back to the strong statement that I made earlier, which is, again, we talk about this being both head and heart work. If you ignore the heart or the feelings at your own peril, not everyone in an organization will have feelings about different parts of an equity journey, board governance, for example. Your staff may not be real keened in on the board governance and equity structure, but absolutely everyone will have feelings about change.

Now they may not be challenging feelings, but there will be feelings there. They don't stop just because you actually have the transition. The feelings piece, I think, is certainly there's the process, elements that we're talking to about strengthening, but the feelings have been entirely neglected in so many of these examples that we've seen and have seen how that has either really diminished the capacity of new leaders or sent them out the door in a much better time frame than they otherwise would have been.

[0:37:52] JSS: Yes. Yes. Yes. All the yeses to that. If people want to connect with you in your work, where can they find you?

[0:37:59] AM: Well, you can see my picture in my bio on Stamey Street's website, but my good friend, colleague, and mentor sent me into the land of LinkedIn, that's annie-mckay-ks.

[0:38:12] JSS: Well, thank you for coming on the podcast again, Annie.

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[0:38:16] JSS: That's this week's episode of Race in the Workplace. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast and share it with a friend who may be a DEI professional who can use these strategies in their work. My hope for the podcast is that it reaches every person who needs it. Until next time. Take care.

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